I think the perception is the much bigger story here than the actual change in advice by German authorities. Traveling to the US (and other countries as well) always had the chance to trigger some overzealous enforcement and/or arbitrary rejection or detainment.
But the current US government is very strongly ramping up the rethoric and actions in that area, so the risk increased and will very likely increase further. That creates an enormous amount of uncertainty and this uncertainty will have effects. For some people (white, from western countries) this is probably still a very low risk, but anyone that fits the target profile of the new government is in much more danger.
I don't want to downplay this by pointing to perception, but in the end the perception is much more likely to affect the behaviour of visitors than the murky real change. Even at a low chance, people quite justifiably don't want to risk geting locked up in a cold cell for an arbitrary amount of time. And the perception matters much more here than the quantifiable risk of getting detained.
For the average European there was never a risk of getting detained for weeks in a prison facility where the lights are never off and your only comfort is an aluminium foil blanket.
It's not just rhetoric. I agree that the risk isn't particularly high, but it did seem to have gone from 'negligible' to 'possible'.
Yeah, I would have expected to get my ESTA denied, or denied entry at the border and shipped back. It would have never occured to me that I would be arrested for weeks. It's insane to me, it can't make economical sense, it must be cheaper to just deny entry than arresting people.
Unfortunately I need to travel to the US soon for a company (on?)off-site, and the thought is in the back of my mind. Getting off the plane and getting sent back would be annoying but whatever. Getting detained would be a nightmare.
Is the company you have to travel for affected by the tariffs or retaliatory tariffs, or is a company with the same or very similar name in such a position?
One of the scariest aspects is them refusing to tell you what you did wrong. From that link
>...there was another unspecified issue that they refused to disclose. I can’t help but wonder whether my frequent, and less than flattering, public comments regarding their president and his administration played a role...
So it's not just following set rules. Maybe you tweeted Trump is a jerk once and they checked your twitter? Or maybe not. If they won't tell you how can you know?
I thought one of the motivations is that its all privatize. so anyone getting detained is money in the pocket for the company doing the detaining once some official indicates a person may need to be detained.
The US pays private prisons per prison, not per prisoner. So it looks bad if XYZ agency is paying for a prison with empty beds. The incentive/political optics is to fill those beds. Something resource utilization rates something something.
Well, cheaper for whom? Many of the "detention centers" are run by private companies for-profit. And many of the border agents aren't concerned with cost, but "doing their job" or political agendas.
> It's insane to me, it can't make economical sense, it must be cheaper to just deny entry than arresting people.
Not if you run a for-profit private prison and get paid for nr of inmates X time of stay, then you want them to stay as long as possible and then some more, who is gonna complain anyway. Some subhumans with no rights?
US is properly fucked up in this regard for a very long time, private prisons owners were actively campaigning against decriminalization of marihuana for a long time to not lose revenue. The fact that part of their revenue is ruining people's lives en masse and for good (good luck getting any normal job in US with prison conviction, for ie having 2 joints on you in bible belt states) is just an insignificant detail.
> it must be cheaper to just deny entry than arresting people.
The cruelty is the point.
The real story is that Europeans and Canadians have been downgraded from "white country" immigration treatment to the "barely human scum" treatment previously reserved for the southern border. Note that that was bipartisan, as well.
> Unfortunately I need to travel to the US soon for a company (on?)off-site
> Double-check the rules for working under an ESTA.
This cannot be emphasized too strongly. Never give a border guard the idea that you’re going to do something your paperwork doesn’t permit. Don’t hint that money might be earned unless you have a work permit. Don’t let anything expire, and be very careful when traveling with renew soon documents. Err on the side of caution with all interactions. All of these issues are not new and not us-specific.
And check how the laws of the country you’re trying to enter differ from your own. For example, a drunk driving conviction is quite serious in Canada but I don’t think the US cares?
ESTAs (at least those given to EU persons; I'm not sure if there are other variants) allow for business travel, that is, essentially, meetings. So _should_ be fine for onsites, you'd think, though who knows with the current lunatic in charge, rules mean nothing anymore, etc.
Yeah this was my thought as well. Here in the Netherlands we don't treat all foreigners equal, nobody is going to treat a Japanese tourist the same as a refugee from Mali. It would be utterly insane. What the hell is going on in America?!
I don’t think many white people truly understand what it’s like to be a minority trying to travel to the United States.
As a personal anecdote, my family and I have been naturalized Canadian citizens for over a decade. We travel frequently on our Canadian passports and rarely encounter issues visiting the EU or UK is usually smooth and pleasant. But the U.S.? That’s a very different story.
Every time we try to cross the border, we’re pulled aside for additional questioning. Our belongings are thoroughly searched, and the process often takes hours, causing us to miss flights or arrive late.
Why? Because the country of birth listed on our passports is an Islamic country.
None of us have returned there in years. I don’t even follow Islam, I’m a Christian. And yet, U.S. officers repeatedly question me about my intentions, sometimes quoting verses from the Quran, as if I’m part of a terrorist organization. Then they seemingly get offended when I reply with "I don't know which year Mohammad was born, I'm not a Muslim."
The experience is deeply dehumanizing. From the holding area, we watch white travelers breeze through with a smile and a passport flash, while we’re treated with suspicion and delay.
For the longest time, no one seemed to care about this kind of treatment until it started affecting Europeans. Suddenly, it’s headline news. Sadly, issues like these often go ignored until they impact white Westerners or their government decides they matter. As an example, look at Gaza, which has been suffering for decades with barely a whisper until the West turned its attention briefly.
All that said, I’m genuinely glad this conversation is finally happening. And despite everything, I have nothing but love for the American people. They’re incredibly kind, and the U.S. is home to some of the most breathtaking nature I’ve ever seen. Which is why, despite the above, I am always eager to travel there.
EDIT I just checked and yes indeed. This is strange, the kind of information that does not really makes sense to assert that you are the actual owner of the document
hard to imagine a comment like this isn’t followed by “though that was an inside job…” :)
one time as a kid, I got beaten the shit out of this white christian kid in my neighborhood, since then I do not allow any white christian people anywhere near me, not taking any chances
- The Palmer Raids (1919-20)
- WW2 internment and deportation (1942-45)
- McCarthy era (all of the 50s)
- Present day
Each one seems to have deported random people. Many of whom did nothing wrong.
And honorable mention:
- Fallout from the Iranian hostage crisis (1979-81)
That last one didn't involve Europeans, per se, but it did deport a lot of innocent people. And for a bonus, here's the ~30yr pattern of anti-immigration:
- Immigration Act of 1924
- Operation Wetback of 1954
- Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996
- Present day
These things have _always_ happened here. And some of them even follow a pattern.
Are we still pretending that Guantanamo Bay never existed or that the US didn't randomly accuse people all over the world of terrorism and imprison them without a shred of evidence?
Those generally affected Muslims, so Europeans generally didn't have incentive to care.
When you wonder why people behave in a certain way, then thinking deeper about what their incentives are will often give the answer. Incentives, incentives, incentives.
Qoute from one of the cases that triggered the warning:
> Senior described Schmidt being “violently interrogated” at Logan Airport for hours, and being stripped naked, put in a cold shower by two officials, and being put back onto a chair.
> For the average European there was never a risk of getting detained for weeks in a prison facility where the lights are never off and your only comfort is an aluminium foil blanket.
Maybe I'm too old, but i clearly remember that, some years ago, US did a lot of phone searches at its border and rejected or detained people based on what they found in the social media profile of the victim.
Not for weeks, but I was 'detained' for 24 hrs and then escorted in handcuffs to a plane back to Germany about 20 years ago (2002 or 2003 IIRC) for a 2 week overstay in 1998 (and since then I've been kicked out of the visa waiver program and on each followup visit interrogated in a backroom each time I wanted to enter the US for visiting GDC or E3 (basically 2hrs waiting time for 5 minutes of pointless questions and staring at my visa and passport) - I've since given up trying to travel to the US, it's just too much hassle.
And from the reports, a lack of rights for detainees to reach out faster to their relative, lawyer or just a translator. Due process is out the window, what the King says is law. It sounds cynic, but with many detentions centers run by private operators, and expanding[1], there's just no interest for those companies to get rid of their guests quickly. Why won't they get every detained person before a judge within 24 hours, especially if they are move to another state? Is paying corporations for more beds really the preferred solution over appointing more immigration judges?
How is this a perception issue? It’s a real issue.
Even if the chances of getting detained on bullshit charges are slim, the behavior of the government is now so erratic and hostile that people who care will actively avoid going to the US. And for what exactly? Does anyone still wonder? Or do they just accept that the government constantly does stupid things for no real reason?
If my country behaved like the US for just one hour, the press would find enough scandals to talk about for a year. But the US manages to make the press move on to the next scandal. And the next. And so on.
It's both. But the real issue also existed before, they just turned it up to 11 and will likely go much further.
I don't want to downplay this, the point I was trying to make is that the perception will have a much bigger effect now independent of how likely it is for each person to be actually affected. And the perception includes the expected further escalation by the current US government.
There's a lot of issues with how the US handles immigration (and other countries as well). It's essentially a lawless zone where you're completely at the mercy of the US authorities. But even if that isn't new, the rethoric and aggressive actions by the new government will make this a lot worse.
You're both right. It was an issue before. It's an issue now too.
It might even be less of an issue now, practically, because of budget cuts.
But it will be perceived as a bigger issue than whatever the reality is because of the rhetoric.
Incidentally, when the ICE deportations started, the heated rhetoric was an explicit part of the strategy to spook people into "self-deporting".
I have no idea if this worked or not, but I believe the reason was due to not having enough budget or staff to do the scale of deportations that the administration wanted to do.
Even if you cannot prove it doesn't mean it is necessarily perception. Just because one cannot prove something, doesn't mean it's not real. Can you prove the numbers haven't risen? The main issue is the arbitrary detention. Getting turned away at the border and taking the next flight home is one thing, but getting locked up seems scary.
You claim it’s a perception issue. We say it doesn’t matter if it’s perception. Even one wrongful detention is too much. And people should avoid going to the US in this climate. My past tweets would probably be enough to get me detained.
Am I sure about that? No.
Can anyone be sure nowadays?
Is that just perception? Maybe. Will I avoid going to the US anyway? Yes.
If you’re still looking for a trend, here’s one: We don’t trust the US anymore. And there’s nothing their government does or says to reassure us.
It's rare enough that when it happens it makes the news in the citizen's country, so having several in quick succession like this is immediately noticed and acted upon.
I don't see how that relates to what I said and I don't know why you go political with "on the right". I'm not american, and this conversation is clearly about how non american countries see the situation, and for us being detained that way is not a left or right wing political wish or dream or nightmare, it's just a "does it happen in that country or not".
And as an aside, if you think train crash are not a matter worth talking about, or that they're political, again .. That's a hell of a point of view that I don't share.
I'm honestly not sure what or why you are arguing, if you say it happened before then yes no one said the contrary, several countries are now saying the threshold to go from "a bit longer interrogation" to "straight up detention like a criminal" has become much lower and thus we are much more likely to be impacted, and if you disagree with that when then again it doesn't really matter because it's a travel advice by a non US gov to their non US citizen based on their evaluation, feelings and online rhetoric don't matter into that, though you are of course free of having your own opinion
What is your country? Curious to see its border laws to see if I can be denied entry or deported if I break the law, which is clearly erratic and hostile behavior.
I'm originally from Brazil and have Swedish citizenship, last time I traveled with a stopover the USA I had a ESTA while completely forgetting I still had a valid visa on my Brazilian passport, going through immigration they caught up to that and asked me why I had 2 visas to the USA. I had to explain that while the immigration officer went on grilling me for reasons, I was just passing by the USA en route to visit family in Brazil, and it already made me quite uncomfortable.
Nowadays I have no idea if they would have detained me because it looked fishy to some immigration officer, at that time I was expecting I just wouldn't make the second leg of the flight and would be sent back to the EU, right now I won't ever chance passing by the USA simply because I have no idea what would happen.
I'm from South America, already a target to ICE/CBP, my B-2 expired and I would use ESTA instead, will that trigger something? No idea, I won't ever play my luck with that question in my head.
What a horrific ordeal, and the Latin American women she met are having worse time. The worst of it is the "just following orders" robots (the foot soldiers of fascistic 1940s say hello) having no answers to her question of "How long will I be here?".
I wonder how it'll end. Trump/MAGA/Project 2025 can turn the country into a police state (Russia-style) with even more rigged elections (Russia-style) and the populace will probably just submit (and about 50% will defend it, some of them because of ego protection (1)). They are already ignoring judges' orders, basically saying "What are you going to do about it?".
Will someone in the military lead a batallion of tanks on Washington DC?
... who tried to enter from Mexico after being denied entry from Canada instead of resolving the issue with the embassy as she was told. Plus some more sketchy shit.
TFA is light on details about the circumstances of the three Germans' detention but considering that the German ministry is basically telling people to not violate their visas or lie on their application it doesn't sound like they just had bad luck without doing anything wrong.
> ... who tried to enter from Mexico after being denied entry from Canada instead of resolving the issue with the embassy as she was told. Plus some more sketchy shit.
Let's establish a timeline...
- She applied for a visa, and was denied.
- She applied again, went to the Mexican border because that's close to her immigration's lawyer office, and was allowed entry.
- At some point, she tried to enter the country, and the border guard thinks the above was shady (and you're accepting this guard's judgement. A lawyer would ask "What law did she break?").
- A week or 2 ago, she applied again, she went to the Mexican border for the same reason as above. Why is that sketchy? Immigration checkpoints should work the same anywhere, they're all connected anyway.
- At this point she's told she should've gone to a consulate to fix the problem. She's denied entry at the border and she looks for flights home.
- A few moments later she's arrested for who knows what and detained for an inderteminate amount of time.
- 3 days later, not knowing how long she'll be detained, someone tells her "be prepared for months.".
I get that asking for accountability from a unaccountable bureaucrats working in a corrupt police state is a moot point, but what law did she break that justified her detainment? Not knowing she should've gone to a consulate? Thinking there's some exploit in the system that different borders have different rules instead of them being all connected, and should treat everyone equally? Oh, some "shady shit" is enough excuse for you?
OK, maybe what she wrote isn't the whole thing. Maybe the corrupt police state will issue a statement to fill in the gaps. Would I believe that corrupt police state?
The way the TN visa works is you are supposed to go to the border with your papers, and get adjudicated there.
Unless you aren't allowed to re-apply after one denial (which I don't believe to be the case), it doesn't matter which border control point she went to for her return visit.
And unless the overton window has shifted into actual full fascism last week, being turned away at a border checkpoint is not grounds for a multi-week/month imprisonment.
But I suppose you can excuse any barbarity with 'well the victim was probably sketchy'.
good points regarding the Canadian. For the Germans: I don't believe that the statements from the ministry are indicative of the three individual cases. Regarding one case, I read in an interview with him that he was detained because his English was poor: He said he "lived" in the USA when he actually meant to say he was just visiting there. That was enough to incarcerate him. Sure, he probably came across as a bit sketchy anyway because his fiancée is American and they have a long-distance relationship, but those are not valid reasons to treat him like that.
The military will only carry out a coup if there is a legitimate opposing nexus of political power for it to rally behind, and there isn't one.
That's not a sufficient condition, by the way, but it is a necessary one.
The establishment Dems should be fighting like hell to delegitinize this shitshow, instead of rolling over like lapdogs. I guess the donors are happy with the outcome, and I have to assume that so are they.
I really don't understand the Dems (dubbed Vichy Dems now). Sure legistatively they've got no power now, and they're probably waiting for the 2026 mid-terms campaign to start yelling, but yeah they appear to be rolling over. Is it because the voters have really really short memories? Is it because you don't interrupt the enemy while they're making a mistake?
Maybe they're yelling, but the cowered media (hello Jeff, hello Sinclair Media, hello ABC surrender-monkeys paying Trump settlement money 1)) and the places people now get news from (owned by the Supreme Imbecile, Zuck, and "Thank you President Trump for our ressurection" TikTok) are just not covering it.
If I cared more, I'd make a website called Department of Lies (since the regime defines what they're doing as the truth) and catalog all the actions of the regime, and how they're illegal.
Edit to add: maybe the Dems are afraid of violence, the Imbecile Nazi (aka Proud Boys) are pardoned and can roam free, what's stopping them from physical violence against loud and promiment voices (and their children). Even if local police arrest them, the top of the regime can say "Let them go.". Ah, fucking despotic nation...
>If I cared more, I'd make a website called Department of Lies (since the regime defines what they're doing as the truth) and catalog all the actions of the regime, and how they're illegal.
The main party—the same one that pushed Sanders out early instead of letting the primary take its course—is woefully out of touch.
How is it that a non-white, middle-aged, moderate liberal in the NYC tristate better able to understand the problems than our Democrat politicians?
And it doesn’t help that the most vocal liberals are also missing the forest for the trees.
Just trying say to put the brakes in some of the trans rights (kids) and the most excessive parts of DEI labels me as “conservative” and shutdown on any discourse. Meanwhile the problems facing the larger, 10x middle-ground population that got Trump elected, is ignored.
Yes, the issue is one of rhetoric but it’s also the fact that border officers in most countries are afforded a ridiculous amount of power relative to their education/training/ability, and for a certain personality type in that job (I think we all know who I’m talking about) it becomes an interaction with a mini-Stalin.
This isn’t a new problem, and I don’t know how to solve it other than replace border agents with computers.
The US media’s love of hysterical rhetoric (on both sides) doesn’t help either, since constantly pushing these wild narratives in media emboldens these mini-dictator personality types to do really dumb things.
The both sides argument is nonsense. We really need to stop playing into that because it really isn't true and it benefits one side much more than the other by bringing everyone down to their level.
The US has been ignoring its immigration laws for the last few decades (not just immigration, really).
All the while other countries routinely enforce their immigration laws. In Canada if you’re caught crossing the border illegally you will be deported. A number of people on student visa were recently told to “go home”. No nonsense enforcement, simply “follow the law”.
The US elects someone who decides to do the same and the media treats it like the collapse of a democracy. In the US illegally? Deportation. Caught crossing the border illegally? Immediately turned around. Simple enforcement of the law.
It does help if one keeps in mind that countries often use these travel warnings politically - Germany is upset the US isn’t interested in continuing the Ukraine war so does a little jab with the border warning.
This is simplistic dismissal of how people who accurately predicted how the US would get worse under Trump were described as hysterical. It's not symmetrical and anyone who thinks it is is delusional.
But the current US government is very strongly ramping up the rethoric and actions in that area, so the risk increased and will very likely increase further. That creates an enormous amount of uncertainty and this uncertainty will have effects. For some people (white, from western countries) this is probably still a very low risk, but anyone that fits the target profile of the new government is in much more danger.
I don't want to downplay this by pointing to perception, but in the end the perception is much more likely to affect the behaviour of visitors than the murky real change. Even at a low chance, people quite justifiably don't want to risk geting locked up in a cold cell for an arbitrary amount of time. And the perception matters much more here than the quantifiable risk of getting detained.